The original last episode

[Alric Knebel]

While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.

From this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending

According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.

Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in – the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.

According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background… and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."

______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[Andrew]

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in – the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background… and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

What was the nature of their falling out about?

Andrew

[Alric Knebel]

Post by Andrew

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in – the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background… and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

What was the nature of their falling out about?

I was wondering that, too. Whatever it was, it was detrimental to a
good ending. I guess when McGoohan was telling Lew all along that
there was an ending, there really was. But when he had the falling
out with Markstein, there went his ending. He couldn't use it
anymore. Too bad.

I suppose these Prisoner experts can probably fill in the details.

______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[Dick Spanner]

Post by Andrew

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in – the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background… and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

What was the nature of their falling out about?
Andrew

[m***@googlemail.com]

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode.  It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.  
From this link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_origin...
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in – the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background… and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

This completely disconnected notion was made into a movie in 2002
actually. Some guy has his memory erased and then he infiltrates his
own company and find out what they are up to and, up until almost the
end, he does not realise who he is.............. It was not a bad
movie until the ending, queerly emough, which was pretty
pants............. ;-))))) ......... Involving heroes and helicopters
and big explosions....... ;)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284978/

Is James Follet actually more than an invention for a joke web page?
Ken, Ive heard of, and even seen his books in shops....

[A.N.Other]

Post by m***@googlemail.com
Is James Follet actually more than an invention for a joke web page?
Ken, Ive heard of, and even seen his books in shops....

James Follet is indeed a published author and also the writer of some
damn good sci-fi & other drama for the BBC. Unfortunately, he tends to
regard Daily Mail readers as Left wing commie pinkoes and is one of
the more opinionated people on Usenet.

[m***@googlemail.com]

I've just noticed that wiki-page has had a major makeover recently.
They've removed all the cobblers about Vietnam and mysterious
empirical numerisation and replaced it with different old rubbish.

Has it been written by the George Markstein Appreciation Society?

Good old wiki. I once tried to contradict the old cobblers about
Vietnam they had on their trivia section and a *supervisor* reversed
my changes and reported me for *Vandalism*...... But now all the
vietnam stuff has gone..... 8-O

Does this mean Sheriff Tomm was right a few threads ago? Will he get a
prize?

[Offramp]

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode.  It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.  
From this link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_origin...
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in – the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background… and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."
______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[Offramp]

On Jan 24, 9:39 pm, Alric Knebel <***@cableone.net> wrote:

That sounds like a really good explanation. A lot of things make sense
after reading that... I may have to watch the series again, now!

[Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)]

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in - the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background. and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."

That makes too much sense for my liking. Give me Fall Out any day of the
week. It suited it, and it cemented its allegorical status. I think without
Fall Out it might not have stimulated quite so much debate, as it has all
these years. If it was not always intended that way, then it was a
definitely a happy accident.

If AMC have got any balls, they'll do something unique, but equally
baffling. Or perhaps to make it really unique, they could have it make lots
of sense.....we'll have to see. :)

[Alric Knebel]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:12:37 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in - the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background. and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."

That makes too much sense for my liking. Give me Fall Out any day of the
week. It suited it, and it cemented its allegorical status. I think without
Fall Out it might not have stimulated quite so much debate, as it has all
these years. If it was not always intended that way, then it was a
definitely a happy accident.

The original was a very clever conclusion. And honest. It's not a
lack of stuff thrown in because of a lack of creativity, then fobbing
it off as "allegory."

And what's with the name change?

______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[m***@googlemail.com]

Post by Alric Knebel
The original was a very clever conclusion.

Where is the evidence that this was the *original* conclusion Alric?
People load all this guff into wiki and you believe it, like the video-
case. You should seek truth as well as knowledge.

This *conclusion* is like the 'death-dream'. Someone else came up with
it all years and years later and then suddenly they've written a
pamphlet or a book. How come it's suddenly appeared on wiki, forty
years later? Where's it been hiding? Have you sen the 1966 *yellow
paper*, as they like to say in here.

[Alric Knebel]

Post by m***@googlemail.com

Post by Alric Knebel
The original was a very clever conclusion.

Where is the evidence that this was the *original* conclusion Alric?
People load all this guff into wiki and you believe it, like the video-
case. You should seek truth as well as knowledge.
This *conclusion* is like the 'death-dream'. Someone else came up with
it all years and years later and then suddenly they've written a
pamphlet or a book. How come it's suddenly appeared on wiki, forty
years later? Where's it been hiding? Have you seen the 1966 *yellow
paper*, as they like to say in here.

Well, like I said elsewhere, it's one person says one thing, then
someone else comes along and says the opposite. One place says it was
a hit, another site says it was a ratings failure. Who knows what?

About the ending, Lew Grade said that McGoohan kept telling him that
he had an ending. He reassured Lew that he had it every time Lew
asked him. Then approaching the last minute, he admitted to Lew he
didn't have it. So to me, this Markstein story makes sense. He did
in fact have an ending, but when he had the falling out with
Markstein, he was left without it. He couldn't use it at that point.

I would not be disappointed if they used that ending for the remake.

______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[m***@googlemail.com]

Where is the evidence that this was the *original* conclusion Alric?
People load all this guff into wiki and you believe it, like the video-
case. You should seek truth as well as knowledge.

Post by Alric Knebel
Well, like I said elsewhere, it's one person says one thing, then
someone else comes along and says the opposite.  One place says it was
a hit, another site says it was a ratings failure.  Who knows what?  

Well.............. the guy who seems to have been at the forefront of
much of this sort of stuff is the famous author,James Follett (who
he?). It's still googlable. This is how history seems to get written
on the web. According to this impeccable source the 'original ending'
was a death-dream in more than one way.......... :-))))



James Follett
Godalming, Surrey
England
February 1993
I think the story of George's departure from the series is too well
known to
delve into here. But when he left, the reason why Drake resigned left
with him
because George carried all his notes in his head. He refused to
divulge the
reason for TPs resignation until shortly before his death. We we're
having tea
in a London hotel when the conversation came around to the TP. I asked
him:
`Why DID Drake resign, George?'
He grinned impishly. `You've known me long enough to know how my
mind
works, Jim, so YOU tell me why he resigned.'
I had already given the matter careful thought. When he offered my
reason,
he thumped the arm of his chair in delight and beamed. `There. I kept
telling
all those idiots that it was obvious. So who do you think Number 1
was?'
I had nearly got it right. George outlined the whole preamble to
me
and told me not to tell no-one until after his death. So... Is anyone
out
there interested?
--James Follett -Novelist
G1LXP (Licensed Ex-Pirate)
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.tv.prisoner/browse_thread/thread/459ef5927321a89f?hl=en&q=%22james+follett%22+markstein

[Jan]

Post by m***@googlemail.com
Where is the evidence that this was the *original* conclusion Alric?
People load all this guff into wiki and you believe it, like the video-
case. You should seek truth as well as knowledge.

Post by Alric Knebel
Well, like I said elsewhere, it's one person says one thing, then
someone else comes along and says the opposite.  One place says it was
a hit, another site says it was a ratings failure.  Who knows what?  

Well.............. the guy who seems to have been at the forefront of
much of this sort of stuff is the famous author,James Follett (who
he?). It's still googlable. This is how history seems to get written
on the web. According to this impeccable source the 'original ending'
was a death-dream in more than one way.......... :-))))
James Follett
Godalming, Surrey
England
February 1993
I think the story of George's departure from the series is too well
known to
delve into here. But when he left, the reason why Drake resigned left
with him
because George carried all his notes in his head. He refused to
divulge the
reason for TPs resignation until shortly before his death. We we're
having tea
in a London hotel when the conversation came around to the TP. I asked
   `Why DID Drake resign, George?'
   He grinned impishly. `You've known me long enough to know how my
mind
works, Jim, so YOU tell me why he resigned.'
   I had already given the matter careful thought. When he offered my
reason,
he thumped the arm of his chair in delight and beamed. `There. I kept
telling
all those idiots that it was obvious. So who do you think Number 1
was?'
   I had nearly got it right. George outlined the whole preamble to
me
and told me not to tell no-one until after his death. So... Is anyone
out
there interested?
 --James Follett -Novelist
G1LXP (Licensed Ex-Pirate)http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.tv.prisoner/browse_thread/thread...

So, what was the story? What did Follett say that Markstein said
about why Drake resigned (did he?) and who Number 1 was?

[m***@googlemail.com]

So, what was the story?  What did Follett say that Markstein said
about why Drake resigned (did he?) and who Number 1 was?- Hide quoted text -

Wot wiki says in 2009........ which merely goes to the point I made to
Alric about all this gubbins being made up twenty years after the
events....... just like the Harmony myths were made up ten years after
the events and believed by many. with no real evidence whatsoever for
them either.

[Brian Watson]

So, what was the story? What did Follett say that Markstein said
about why Drake resigned (did he?) and who Number 1 was?- Hide quoted text -
Wot wiki says in 2009........ which merely goes to the point I made to

Alric about all this gubbins being made up twenty years after the
events....... just like the Harmony myths were made up ten years after
the events and believed by many. with no real evidence whatsoever for
them either.

Follett is a smug twerp who has peddled his half-baked, half-revealed,
theories here in the past.

He likes to think people are falling at his feet to accept what HE says was
in Markstein's mind for the series end.

I'm not.

[Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)]

Post by Alric Knebel
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:12:37 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in - the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background. and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."

That makes too much sense for my liking. Give me Fall Out any day of the
week. It suited it, and it cemented its allegorical status. I think without
Fall Out it might not have stimulated quite so much debate, as it has all
these years. If it was not always intended that way, then it was a
definitely a happy accident.

The original was a very clever conclusion. And honest. It's not a
lack of stuff thrown in because of a lack of creativity, then fobbing
it off as "allegory."

Ahh tasteless sarcasm I see. Well I can categorically tell you that the
people who laboured with love on The Prisoner couldn't muster a lack of
creativity if they tried, and that is some truth for you right there.

It has already been made clear to most people present that your opinion of
the original Prisoner is next to worthless, as you are relying on extremely
vague memories of watching it while obviously not taking enough notice to
remember points that even casual observers can remember with abundant ease.
You coming in here to argue the merits of The Prisoner is akin to myself
flicking through War & Peace, over twenty years ago, and then trying argue
with people who've studied it and wrote University theses on the subject.

IF Fall Out was rushed, or IF it was not what they originally had in mind,
that doesn't mean it is necessarily poor.....do you see now? There are
masterpiece poems originally jotted on bits of paper from a sudden spark of
creativity. This rushed piece of garbage of yours obviously inspired the
talented cast to some of the finest acting in the entire series (even by Mrs
McGoohan's recent admission).

Clearly *you* don't appreciate Fall Out, that is fair enough, but the
conclusion that therefore it must be a rushed piece of garbage is arrogance
personified. Especially when you try to argue that point with some of the
most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject. Where exactly do you
get off? :/

[Alric Knebel]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:27:15 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)

Post by Alric Knebel
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:12:37 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in - the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background. and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."

That makes too much sense for my liking. Give me Fall Out any day of the
week. It suited it, and it cemented its allegorical status. I think without
Fall Out it might not have stimulated quite so much debate, as it has all
these years. If it was not always intended that way, then it was a
definitely a happy accident.

The original was a very clever conclusion. And honest. It's not a
lack of stuff thrown in because of a lack of creativity, then fobbing
it off as "allegory."

Ahh tasteless sarcasm I see. Well I can categorically tell you that the
people who laboured with love on The Prisoner couldn't muster a lack of
creativity if they tried, and that is some truth for you right there.

It was definitely a fine show. I never said it wasn't. Absolutely
loved it, and have thought about it after the first time I saw it
again and again and again, and enjoyed it ever time I saw it. Except
for the ending. Now that I'm older, I see the ending was baloney.

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)
It has already been made clear to most people present that your opinion of
the original Prisoner is next to worthless, as you are relying on extremely
vague memories of watching it while obviously not taking enough notice to
remember points that even casual observers can remember with abundant ease.
You coming in here to argue the merits of The Prisoner is akin to myself
flicking through War & Peace, over twenty years ago, and then trying argue
with people who've studied it and wrote University theses on the subject.

My opinion of "The Prisoner" is far from worthless. You've just lost
perspective with your obsession, and, like a religious kook who
insists he's a member of the true religion, you think you're in a
position to define to everyone else what a fan is, or to judge the
value of the opinion of others. Because I don't have an equal
obsession with yours doesn't mean I don't absolutely love the show.
What I did was far more than like "flicking through" the pages of a
complex novel, as I was far more than a "casual viewer." I just
haven't seen it in twenty years. My impressions are still valid. And
I definitely remember watching it the last episode the last time I saw
it and cringing. Now I'm able to put into words how it fails. It had
jumped from a show that was grounded in some place, that existed
within its own reality -- a story with an agent that had actually been
kidnapped and whisked to some actual place -- to a forfeiture of all
previous claims to its reality to take refuge behind a full-blown
allegory and metaphor. He pulls the mask off and HE'S Number One!?
Come on. Despite the fact that I liked the little touch of the door
of his apartment opening automatically, I still felt the last episode
was ham-handed and trite. And THAT is a very valid opinion,
regardless of whether I noticed that his room was a duplicate of his
apartment.

And you can write a thesis on anything. About ten years ago, I
assisted a friend of mine in writing a paper on "Pee Wee's Playhouse,"
the Saturday morning show. We had previously discussed how Pee Wee's
show had masked a very creative adult aesthetic behind childish
antics. The class was about semiotics. I helped her analyze the
scenes she referenced. See how that works? You can do that with
ANYTHING.

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)
IF Fall Out was rushed, or IF it was not what they originally had in mind,
that doesn't mean it is necessarily poor.....do you see now? There are
masterpiece poems originally jotted on bits of paper from a sudden spark of
creativity. This rushed piece of garbage of yours obviously inspired the
talented cast to some of the finest acting in the entire series (even by Mrs
McGoohan's recent admission).

"Some of the finest acting in the entire series"? You've got to be
kidding. The last episode was comprised of a lot of odd scenes,
stitched together, not requiring much concentration from anyone. I
could almost see them, writing a few lines, then looking at their
watches, "Okay, we still have fifteen minutes left to fill." Then
they'd turn to the typewriter for another scene. "I know! Let's add
a scene in which his escorts begin dancing to 'All You Need is Love.'"
And then later, "Hey, let's have the panelists attired in frocks, and
when Number 6 is speaking, they'll constantly make noise, then they'll
burst out in applause when he's done, as if they'd actually heard
him." Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. The same message could
have been delivered with more drama; or with less dadaism.

And where did Mrs. McGoohan say anything like that it was such a
stellar achievement?

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)
Clearly *you* don't appreciate Fall Out, that is fair enough, but the
conclusion that therefore it must be a rushed piece of garbage is arrogance
personified. Especially when you try to argue that point with some of the
most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject. Where exactly do you
get off? :/

I don't have to be a religious fanatic to argue against the opinion of
a religious fanatic. To me, you've lost your objectivity. At this
point, you're discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a
pin.

And I want to be clear. If I ever used the word "garbage" -- and I
might have -- it's purely an exaggeration to match the depths of my
disappointment. I don't think it was garbage in the sense of real
garbage; it's only in relation to what came before it. I borrow the
word to express an emotional reaction, an expression of outrage, that
he took us that far and then at the last minute said, "Screw you."

______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[Rick Davy]

Post by Alric Knebel
Let's add
a scene in which his escorts begin dancing to 'All You Need is Love.'"

They must have cut that scene as it's one i'm not aware of!

Rick

[Alric Knebel]

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:49:17 -0000, "Rick Davy"

Post by Rick Davy

Post by Alric Knebel
Let's add
a scene in which his escorts begin dancing to 'All You Need is Love.'"

They must have cut that scene as it's one i'm not aware of!

You do remember the song don't you? The jukeboxes? Of course you do?
I'm not sure about the dancing. Maybe I felt like dancing. All I
remember is, it felt ridiculous.

______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[Jill Mills]

RIP and thank you.

Jill

[Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)]

Post by Alric Knebel
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:27:15 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)

Post by Alric Knebel
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:12:37 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)

Post by Alric Knebel
While looking for a listing of how the episodes aired, I found this
little tidbit (and I know this is old news), about the actual last
episode. It sounded like a very interesting twist, and better than
the thrown-together thing we ended with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner#George_Markstein.27s_original_ending
According to author James Follett, a protege of Prisoner co-creator
George Markstein, Markstein had mapped out an explanation for the
Village.[8] In George Markstein's mind, a young Number Six had once
submitted a proposal for how to deal with retired secret agents who
posed a security risk. Six's idea was to create a comfortable
retirement centre where former agents could live out their final
years, enduring firm but unintrusive surveillance.
Years later, Six discovered that his idea had been put into practice,
and not as a benign means of retirement, but as an interrogation
centre and a prison camp. Outraged, Six staged his own resignation,
knowing he would be brought to the Village. He hoped to learn
everything he could of how his idea had been implemented, and find a
way to destroy it. However, due to the range of nationalities and
agents present in the Village, Six realised he was not sure whose
Village he was in - the one brought about by his own people, or by the
other side. Six's conception of the Village would have been the
foundation of declaring him to be 'Number One.' However, Markstein's
falling out with McGoohan resulted in Markstein's departure, and his
original intent was discarded.
According to Markstein: "The Prisoner was going to leave the Village
and he was going to have adventures in many parts of the world, but
ultimately he would always be a prisoner. By that I don't mean he
would always go back to the Village. He would always be a prisoner of
his circumstances, his situation, his secret, his background. and
'they' would always be there to ensure that his captivity continues."

That makes too much sense for my liking. Give me Fall Out any day of the
week. It suited it, and it cemented its allegorical status. I think without
Fall Out it might not have stimulated quite so much debate, as it has all
these years. If it was not always intended that way, then it was a
definitely a happy accident.

The original was a very clever conclusion. And honest. It's not a
lack of stuff thrown in because of a lack of creativity, then fobbing
it off as "allegory."

Ahh tasteless sarcasm I see. Well I can categorically tell you that the
people who laboured with love on The Prisoner couldn't muster a lack of
creativity if they tried, and that is some truth for you right there.

It was definitely a fine show. I never said it wasn't. Absolutely
loved it, and have thought about it after the first time I saw it
again and again and again, and enjoyed it ever time I saw it. Except
for the ending. Now that I'm older, I see the ending was baloney.

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)
It has already been made clear to most people present that your opinion of
the original Prisoner is next to worthless, as you are relying on extremely
vague memories of watching it while obviously not taking enough notice to
remember points that even casual observers can remember with abundant ease.
You coming in here to argue the merits of The Prisoner is akin to myself
flicking through War & Peace, over twenty years ago, and then trying argue
with people who've studied it and wrote University theses on the subject.

My opinion of "The Prisoner" is far from worthless. You've just lost
perspective with your obsession, and, like a religious kook who
insists he's a member of the true religion, you think you're in a
position to define to everyone else what a fan is, or to judge the
value of the opinion of others. Because I don't have an equal
obsession with yours doesn't mean I don't absolutely love the show.
What I did was far more than like "flicking through" the pages of a
complex novel, as I was far more than a "casual viewer." I just
haven't seen it in twenty years. My impressions are still valid. And
I definitely remember watching it the last episode the last time I saw
it and cringing. Now I'm able to put into words how it fails. It had
jumped from a show that was grounded in some place, that existed
within its own reality -- a story with an agent that had actually been
kidnapped and whisked to some actual place -- to a forfeiture of all
previous claims to its reality to take refuge behind a full-blown
allegory and metaphor. He pulls the mask off and HE'S Number One!?
Come on. Despite the fact that I liked the little touch of the door
of his apartment opening automatically, I still felt the last episode
was ham-handed and trite. And THAT is a very valid opinion,
regardless of whether I noticed that his room was a duplicate of his
apartment.
And you can write a thesis on anything. About ten years ago, I
assisted a friend of mine in writing a paper on "Pee Wee's Playhouse,"
the Saturday morning show. We had previously discussed how Pee Wee's
show had masked a very creative adult aesthetic behind childish
antics. The class was about semiotics. I helped her analyze the
scenes she referenced. See how that works? You can do that with
ANYTHING.

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)
IF Fall Out was rushed, or IF it was not what they originally had in mind,
that doesn't mean it is necessarily poor.....do you see now? There are
masterpiece poems originally jotted on bits of paper from a sudden spark of
creativity. This rushed piece of garbage of yours obviously inspired the
talented cast to some of the finest acting in the entire series (even by Mrs
McGoohan's recent admission).

"Some of the finest acting in the entire series"? You've got to be
kidding. The last episode was comprised of a lot of odd scenes,
stitched together, not requiring much concentration from anyone. I
could almost see them, writing a few lines, then looking at their
watches, "Okay, we still have fifteen minutes left to fill." Then
they'd turn to the typewriter for another scene. "I know! Let's add
a scene in which his escorts begin dancing to 'All You Need is Love.'"
And then later, "Hey, let's have the panelists attired in frocks, and
when Number 6 is speaking, they'll constantly make noise, then they'll
burst out in applause when he's done, as if they'd actually heard
him." Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. The same message could
have been delivered with more drama; or with less dadaism.
And where did Mrs. McGoohan say anything like that it was such a
stellar achievement?

To borrow that horrific Americanism, 'my bad', she actually said the
penultimate episode contained the best acting. But I seem to remember you
disliking that episode, too, so I'll let my sentiment stand.

[Alric Knebel]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 21:05:58 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)
To borrow that horrific Americanism, 'my bad', she actually said the
penultimate episode contained the best acting. But I seem to remember you
disliking that episode, too, so I'll let my sentiment stand.

"Horrific Americanism." Ain't you something.

______________________________________________
Alric Knebel

[Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)]

Post by Alric Knebel
On Sun, 8 Feb 2009 21:05:58 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"

Post by Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)
To borrow that horrific Americanism, 'my bad', she actually said the
penultimate episode contained the best acting. But I seem to remember you
disliking that episode, too, so I'll let my sentiment stand.

"Horrific Americanism." Ain't you something.

I never knew you cared.

[Brian Watson]

Post by Alric Knebel
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:12:37 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"
The original was a very clever conclusion. And honest. It's not a
lack of stuff thrown in because of a lack of creativity, then fobbing
it off as "allegory."
And what's with the name change?

It's the latest fashion, apparently.

AgentJohnDrake has appeared here before under another name.

[Legend11 (Formerly Slitheen)]

Post by Brian Watson

Post by Alric Knebel
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 03:12:37 -0000, "Legend11 \(Formerly Slitheen\)"
The original was a very clever conclusion. And honest. It's not a
lack of stuff thrown in because of a lack of creativity, then fobbing
it off as "allegory."
And what's with the name change?

It's the latest fashion, apparently.
AgentJohnDrake has appeared here before under another name.

My story:
I watched The Sarah Jane Adventures the other week and decided I didn't want
to associate myself with the terrible flatulent aliens any longer.

A change is as good as a rest. :)